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ben peek
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 09:36 pm: | |
Up in the Fantasy and Science Fiction thread where people are discussing the generation gap of sf, education came up. There was a bit of kicking of postmodernism, but the more interesting part was noting that often it is a prescribed view that is taught in class.
I've been in education systems for a long time, mainly due to my aversion to office work. And in the last four/five years I've been on both sides of it. It strikes me that, certainly, there is a propaganda like element to teaching, especially at high school level. Learn to read a text a certain way, get marked a certain way, that kind of deal. I figure the environment and cirriculums of school contribute to that as much as individuals and funding and schools. Once you get out of high school you get more room to think, but again, people, place, that plays a part.
I've met more than a few teachers and tutors in my time now, and I think some of them suffer from the Ivory Tower position with their knowledge, which is not my way of doing things. I generally don't think anyone at the front of the glass teaches you much--they're there instead, to help navigate ideas, clean up misdirections, that sort of thing. It's how I approach it, anyhow. The serious part of learning something is done outside the classroom and by the individual.
Anyhow. A mess of thoughts on that topic. |
ben peek
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 04:21 am: | |
And I came across this tonight, which sort of ties into the topic, though i think he wants a stronger propaganda angle (or he's seeing a different one, like the nutty catholic church often does),
Cardinal George Pell also warned this week that the trend to embrace "critical literacy" and abandon traditional English novels was an attempt to make students agents of social change and was placing too much focus on texts that normalised "moral and social disorder".
it's from here:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16703273%255E601,0 0.html |
Spencer
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 09:02 am: | |
God forbid we make students agents of social change! I want to be a teacher someday, and it frightens me when other people (Catholics, creationists, fanatics who want to ban Harry Potter) try to impose their views on the educational system. A lot of teachers don't try to get students to love literature.
I recently read an interesting article by Philip Pullman in which he condemns teachers for having students figure out the mechanics of a poem or literary piece without appreciating it. Fortunately, I have an awesome English teacher this year, and he has students teach poems to the class, discuss literature with minimal interference from him, and examine essential questions about life, the universe, and everything. To me, not enough teachers are like that. |
ben peek
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 03:29 pm: | |
I reckon everyone is trying to impose a view on the education system. There's a lot of left wing hippies (so to say) who go and become teachers for that reason. But you know, considering I'm closer to that than anything else, if you've got to impose a view, I say impose the one that forces people to question the government.
I tend to think that the problem of english is a bit more complicated than just blaming teachers like Pullman does. (Or has.) I teach high school at a coaching college where the material is prescribed, and a lot of it is just uninspiringly useless. Poems about trees, poems about a cat walking down a staircase... I mean, come on. The craft level of the poem might be interesting, but who gives a shit about that if the content is making your eyes bleed. You get a class of thirty turned off from that and it's hard to make it work.
The other thing I reckon contributes is a lot of parents don't put importance on English. This might just be an Australian thing, but it's there. Parents are more concerned with math and science and alla that. |
Spencer
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 04:39 pm: | |
Yeah, it's better to err on the side of questioning the government. I had a hippie teacher last year and that's all she tried to get us to to. I do think that English teachers should at least try to select interesting literary works, but that's not always possible. Here in the U.S., most parents don't care too much about the school system, let alone math and science. |
ben peek
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 05:10 pm: | |
how'd you go with the hippie teacher? i've always tried to keep that angle down in my classes, just cause i figure most can make up their own mind. i'll say what i think, but i make it clear i'm not pushing it. |
Ben Payne
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 05:15 pm: | |
I'd argue it's damn near impossible for any educator to *not* to take an ideological position... people who see themselves as "neutral" are usually just unaware of their biases...
While it's important to try to be even-handed, you're never gonna be totally impartial. But if you're a good teacher you'll give the kids the skills and ability to question and think through their own subject positions, and to recognise that all positions, including the teacher's, are open to challenge... |
StephenB
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 05:21 pm: | |
Hey Ben, didn't realize you were a published author with your own board and a novel comming out. Good stuff. When I get the time, I'll read one of your online stories and give you feedback, if you want.
Good points, here and on the other thread. For me, it's not so much a problem doing well on papers. If you can write well, and give some original insight, chances are you'll do well, regardless. (Of course, you can play it safe and give the standard response to a piece, with well used quotes and references, but this may not work with all professors -- it's not something I want to do). The one time, on a senior level course, I decided to totally take a risk, brake form, and write an essay in a very personal and unconventional fashion, I got a B+ instead of an A because of that. Not a big deal, and I don't regret it.
I just find that some professors, in class discussions, like to stick with teaching a certain way of thinking. Although, most professors in the english department do try and get the students to think. It may just be me partly, because I often want to go further, and that may not be the case with all students and the professors know that, so will be accommodating to the class as a whole, which is fair enough. Sometimes I'll provoke the professor to think about things differently, to question what they've been taught.
The thing is though, most anyone in a position of authority, is going to be effected by that position. I find this can lead to overly self important professors, who may become threatened by a student who challenges them. |
ben peek
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 05:31 pm: | |
ben: yeah, i agree. you can't not have an ideological standpoint when teaching. and as much as i try to be even handed and let people say what they will, i won't tolerate anti-gay/race comments. the first is more a high school thing than the other, i find. |
Ben Payne
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 05:34 pm: | |
Stephen:
I was lucky in my study I guess... most of the lecturers I had were quite welcoming of challenges rather than self important...
I don't know what the situation is in the US or UK, but in Australia we're seeing a lot of funding cuts and subsequently growing class sizes, which does sadly mean that to a large extent you're teaching to the average or below-average students and there's little opportunity to push ideas in classtime; it's a struggle just to get through the basics...
From my own experiences with marking, I don't understand why any lecturer would *not* be overjoyed at original thought... after reading essay after essay recycling the same old ideas pretty much any originality is a welcome thing!
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ben peek
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 05:36 pm: | |
stephen: yeah, man, author and everything. it's no big deal, though. finding authors is like finding rubbish on the ground ;) the board, however, is new so i figure it can stand a bit of breaking in. check out the stories and such--some people have liked 'em, some people not. hope it works the first way for you.
as for professors (and i assume you mean outside high schools) i've found there's a certain type of uni/college lecturer who isn't interested in teaching at all, and finds it a distraction. they're there just so they can further their research. consequently it means that some aren't interested in teaching at all and are quite narrow minded, this is my way, when it comes down to it. |
ben peek
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 06:13 pm: | |
I don't know what the situation is in the US or UK, but in Australia we're seeing a lot of funding cuts and subsequently growing class sizes, which does sadly mean that to a large extent you're teaching to the average or below-average students and there's little opportunity to push ideas in classtime; it's a struggle just to get through the basics...
i find it's a struggle just because of the time frames. if i could have a two hour class, i think it'd be heaps better.
that said, i suspect classes will shrink if the government ups the cost of univeristy and so forth. (have they already done that, even?) you'd think education wasn't a right for everyone with the howard government. |
Stephanie Campisi
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 06:26 pm: | |
Uni fees are up between 25-30%, Ben, I think. I was lucky to begin my course last year, so I'm still paying the lower rates. But add a post-grad degree to that, and I'll have a debt in the tens of thousands.
I dare you to mention the word 'meritocracy' to Howard. Then you can watch him hiss from the pain it causes him. |
ben peek
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 06:40 pm: | |
steph! you've finally come 
i haven't paid a thing for my doctorate yet, which is the only reason i've been able to do it. (i wouldn't have gone the debt for it, i don't think.) anyhow, the way to do it is there's like a partial scholarship thing you can get where you don't have to pay uni fees for the four years of your degree. hopefully it hasn't been cut away, but i heard rumours of it.
(there's always other scholarships, which if you don't do creative writing, you'll stand a reasonable chance at getting from what i hear) |
Stephanie Campisi
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 06:56 pm: | |
Yep, thought I'd pop in and rant a little.
Apologies for my post making bugger all sense. Glean what you can for it.
Unless you're an international student (which you're clearly not), I'm pretty sure all programmes based around a research theses (at a master's level as well as at the PhD level) are covered.
I don't have to pay back my HECS at this stage, which is good, otherwise I'd have to cut fruit and vegies entirely out of my diet.
I just plan to piss off overseas for ten or so years, so that my debt is cancelled. Even if that doesn't happen, I'm sure my attempts to pursue a career in writing (oh, the shame!) will ensure that I'm always below the earning-enough-to-repay-HECS bracket.
You may have your forum back now. |
ben peek
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 07:07 pm: | |
ah, feel free to mess up the forum. it's what it's here for. i'm told the blog doesn't encourage interaction with people, so i'm going to try and make this a place for it.
writing is a good way to ensure you never have to pay your HECS debt back, that's true. less you become popular, but since popular money is from overseas, i'm sure it can be laundered through accounts to avoid debt repayment.
what're you doing at uni, anyhow? |
Stephanie Campisi
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 07:14 pm: | |
I'm an arts student completing a double major in Russian and linguistics. This therefore makes me boring and unemployable.
I think your blog receives fairly good feedback, from what I can see--there seem to be a few arguments and so forth that crop up, which is always a good thing. Of course, you're no Deborah Biancotti, but still. . . |
ben peek
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 07:22 pm: | |
yeah, the blog does okay for it, but it's not a conversational blog. the traffic through it is pretty high--a lot higher than the comments in it would suggest. so there's an audience for it, but blog comments aren't the place for that audience to interact. (i don't know how deb manages it--but i guess her blog has a whole different tone to mine, which has been described as 'fuck you' blogging.)
anyhow: i've this thing here, so i'm going to try turning this into the interactive comment driven area. doesn't mean i people shouldn't have their arguments and leave comments on my blog, however
i always sucked at languages. heh. it's gotta be more employable that me, though. where you at in melbourne? |
Stephanie Campisi
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 07:30 pm: | |
'Fuck you' blogging does kind of sum it up. You're a sort of anti-blogger. But you love it, really. I can tell.
Uni-wise, or location-wise? I'm at Melbourne Uni, and live in the inner north-west, opposite a masonic hall that seems to be a gathering place for delinquents.
Anyway. . .heading off now, and pretending to be productive. Tatas! |
ben peek
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 07:38 pm: | |
an anti-blogger. i should use that. but anyhow, i like blogging, it's its own performance, albeit one with a bit more me than my fiction (which is quite often a different performance). it's more immediate, too, and people seem to enjoy that--but lately the blog has grown a bit beyond my control in how it's percieved, so i'm thinking i can use this place to bring a more grounded reality to it. less fuck you, to maybe fuck that, you know?
anyhow: have fun with the masons. i mean, the uni masons. i mean. the uni. ahem. yes. |
Spencer
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 12:56 pm: | |
My hippie teacher was pretty cool, and she was always having us discuss the Iraq war or identify propaganda. She didn't force her opinion on us though. I talked to her today, and she was mad that some parents wouldn't let their children read The Things They Carried because of the profanity. How ridiculous is that? |
ben peek
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 03:59 pm: | |
pretty fucking ridiculous
all the books i read in high school were full of profanity and sex. i even read THe CHOCOLATE WAR, which i just found out gets banned in the states. didn't like the book at all, though. |
Stephanie Campisi
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 04:46 pm: | |
I find the book banning in the US absolutely ludicrous. I find it bizarre that some Americans will go to such extremes to defend their civil liberties and their freedom of speech, but then book banning can take place.
Crazy country.
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ben peek
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 05:27 pm: | |
it's always struck me as strange. australia bans books, too, though most of 'em are porn and such last time i checked. they did ban alan moore and eddie campell's FROM HELL for a short peroid of time, though. |
Stephanie Campisi
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 05:37 pm: | |
Not to mention movies. I have a right to watch shitty French no-plot-and-shite-acting-but-includes-actual-sex-scenes movies if I so desire. |
ben peek
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 05:56 pm: | |
quite right. i think australia is more big on the banning of film that anything else. though i might be wrong with that--might just be what gets more publicity.
i've always liked watching how people get upset about a film, but not a book. in one of the workshops i teach, i run the book of BATTLE ROYALE (parts of it,a t any rate). but cause they're all high school, i can't show them the film without getting into trouble. |
Mari Ness
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 08:05 pm: | |
We had issues in high school with showing some filmed version of Romeo and Juliet with a bit of suggestive nudity in it, which upset people(parents) quite a lot.
So the teacher solved the situation by explaining all of the sex jokes in Henry IV, part I but swearing us to secrecy. |
ben peek
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 09:41 pm: | |
actually, in aus a few years back, there was a thing about showing baz lurmans ROMEO AND JULIET in school, if only they'd cut out the scene where they take drugs. i sorta think they should just cut out the whole film, but that's me and my hate for baz.
i find most students like shakespeare more when the sex is brought out. |
Ben Payne
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 10:47 pm: | |
Yeah... that's Australian parents for you... take all the sex out of books and then ask "why don't kids read more?"....
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ben peek
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 11:10 pm: | |
no, no, they just take out the drugs. they leave all the sex right in there. i read goldsworthy's MAESTRO for the HSC and it was nothing but sex. a bit about failed dreams, but mainly about all the sex you can have while failing those dreams ;) |
Mastadge
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 06:14 am: | |
I've got a lot to say, and very little time to say it in before I need to get to work, so I hope the following makes some sense:
As someone's who's always been a mediocre student gradewise, I dislike the education system, because they try to teach you that there is only one way to think -- and they try to teach you not to think at all. My most interesting experiences with this come from math classes. I think differently than most of my math teachers, so I'd find the processes they'd teach incomprehensible and only end up confused and frustrated when I tried to follow them. When I did the work my own way, I'd get the right answers, but they'd not give me credit because I hadn't used their specific systems and so hadn't "shown my work" appropriately. Then, later on, in geometry and trigonometry and calculus, I was doing poorly in math and realized that I was so dependent on my calculator that I didn't actually know what I was doing -- just how to get my calculator to do it. So I "lost" my mandatory graphing calculator, my grades dipped lower for a couple weeks as I scrambled to work out how the maths worked, and then, once I figured out what was going on, they spiked. It was awesome.
I've had similar problems in English classes. I can write, sometimes I like to think fairly well, and certainly better than most of my classmates. But too many teachers discourage any creativity at all in writing. You show the slightest bit of subtlety or wit, and they mark you down. In papers, I can't BS. I say what I have to say. So if the assignment is to write, say, a 10 page paper, and I've said all I have to say in 8, I turn it in at 8. The student who randomly infodumps and turns in 15 pages of mostly crap will do better than me, because I didn't hit the quota. I also like to have fun. When writing a paper on PALE FIRE, I argued the opposite of what I wanted to say in the main paper, and then in a series of footnotes longer than the body of the paper, made my real arguments in a playful way. Fortunately, that prof was one of three I've had who appreciate it when I do things like that; most professors and teachers I've had pretty much want you to tell them back exactly what they've told you, exactly as they tell you to tell it. I'm not even going to get into the massive argument I had about possible readings of "The Yellow Wall-Paper" with a teacher who refused to listen to consider any reading other than her own. I don't know if this is because teachers are often convinced their way is the only right way, or if they don't want to have to think about the work they have to grade, or what, but as someone who simply thinks in different ways to most of his peers, the whole "education system" has more often than not been a frustrating hindrance to my learning than any help to it. |
Spencer
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 12:49 pm: | |
Mastadge is right. I hate the fact that if you don't do something a teacher's way, you're penalized for it, even though your way is just as good.
Also, they wouldn't let us watch that part of Romeo and Juliet either. My teacher last year was only allowed to have us read the abridged (i.e. censored) version of Native Son, although almost everyone read the restored version. I read the part that was cut out, and I can't see how it is offensive. The same teacher also had to sneak The Power of One into the curriculum without getting it approved first. |
ben peek
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 03:54 pm: | |
The student who randomly infodumps and turns in 15 pages of mostly crap will do better than me, because I didn't hit the quota.
actually, from my standpoint as a marker, this isn't true. info dumping is pretty easy to pick up and, if you're marking sixty odd assignments, you just get pissed. the shorter, more concise paper would win out. i know a lot of people who mark will say that same thing--cause marking is a fucking chore, man.
which, at times, may be why i think such a prescriptive essay style is taught to people. make them do it this way, make them all do it this way, and it's easier when you have a whole bunch in front of you. that's on my cynical days, that.
still, it sounds like you've had some shit teachers, mastage. |
ben peek
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 03:59 pm: | |
spencer: tell me they aren't making you read bryce courteny? tell me you've been spared australia's most hackiest hack writers, the man who created the advertising logo louie the fly, the man who believes his popularity stops him from being critically supported...
i could go on. actually, i should take back the hackiest hack writer part. i mean, there's matthew reilly and his books that are inspired by movies. |
Ben Payne
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 06:01 pm: | |
Mastage, I agree with Ben, it sounds like you've had some bad teachers. Unfortunately you're right, a lot of teachers don't want to think about alternate ways of thinking, some because they're not interested, others because they're overworked...
However, there are also a lot of teachers who positively *yearn* for original thought... you can hear them sitting around in pubs talking about how excited they get when a student comes up with an original thought...
The key I guess is to get the most from the good teachers and try not to be disheartened by the bad.
I don't know about high school, but at Uni we're not too strict on paper lengths, and a quality eight page essay beats a boring fifteen page one every time, for me!
As Ben said, the marker's probably just marked fifty of the things so anything vaguely original is a breath of fresh air... |
Ben Payne
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 06:04 pm: | |
They had a debate on Vulture last night about the "dumbing down" of the high school curriculum, which I'm not convinced is happening... as far as i know Mathew Reilly's not on there yet... |
ben peek
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 08:12 pm: | |
As Ben said, the marker's probably just marked fifty of the things so anything vaguely original is a breath of fresh air...
that's why i love teaching experimental writing. i call it the button course--as in, you know all the buttons you're not allowed to use for regular courses? this is the course to press the buttons. i never been so bored by the sight of sixty essays after teaching that course.
and reilly might not be on the curriculm, but he's being read by high school students. usually girls, from my experience, which i find a bit odd. his books always struck me as boy fantasies. |
Spencer
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 11:03 am: | |
Yes Ben, they are making us read Bryce Courtenay (but only in the Honors tenth grade English class). My teacher loved it, but I didn't think that it was remotely original or great or anything. The author is not really that well known in the U.S.
Most of my teachers in the past have preferred things to be concise and creative - which is good, because I like my writing to be short and sweet and to the point. But I do know that there are teachers who like long papers with tons of big words (even if the writer is just being pretentious). |
StephenB
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 01:45 pm: | |
Yeah, I think Spencer has a point, some professors seem to buy pretentious bullshit, presented in a certain way. They're usually a little like that themselves, and not the best teachers. It really does come down to the prof; some are good and some arn't.
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ben peek
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 03:16 pm: | |
yeah, but that's like all things, y'know? you find good and shit workers in every job. at the end of the day there's really not much that difference between the person who works at maccas and the person who works as a teacher.
courtenay though... that's just a crime. |
StephenB
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 02:00 pm: | |
Oh, I know teachers are just people like anyone else. My dad was a teacher. I remember one of my teachers (she liked me, but I was a smart ass and never showed up on time) remarked that it's always the teachers kids who are trouble. |
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